Glorify Me With The Glory I Had With You|John 17:5
Peter Porter
John 17:5 a typical translation of this verse it go something like this, Now, Father glorify me together with yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was. Trinitarians typically take this verse to mean that before creation Jesus was in eternity with the Father in his glorified state, and he had this glory before the creation of the world with the Father. This verse is usually used by trinitarians to try to prove that Jesus pre-existed before the creation of the world. In this video (see below) I want to talk about the translation of this verse. I don't buy it and I'm going to show you why I don't buy it. I think there's a pretty serious problem with the way trinitarians typically translate this verse and it results in Jesus saying something quite different than what he really did say. I just want to show you show you that here in this video (see below) Let's just take a look again at a typical translation of this verse. Now, Father, glorify me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was.
I think that's the new American Standard translation and so trinitarians essentially take this verse to mean Jesus relinquished his glory when he became a man, keep that in mind, now he is asking to get his glory back and that's pretty much how they take this verse. Because they think that's what it says to them that proves that Jesus was a self-conscious person pre-existing before the creation of the world. Here's a couple of problems, there's a lot of problems with this interpretation; Number one would be why does God the Son need to ask for his own glory back? why would God the Son need to ask for something which he freely set aside, is he unable to retrieve his glory himself. And if you think about it where is it? what does it mean that he relinquished his glory? In fact trinitarians claim that Jesus did take it for himself in there interpretation of John 2:19. Well if he took it back for himself when he raised himself into glory as trinitarians interpret John 2:19. Why is he asking for it now why is he asking for something that is rightfully his and that he freely set aside. You see what I mean he should just be able to simply retrieve it for himself instead of ask for it.
Second problem: shouldn't he be saying the glory I had with you before I came down from heaven. in trinitarian doctrine Jesus still had his glory long after the world was created and he didn't give up his glory until he descended from heaven into the womb of Mary. Trinitarian responses to these kinds of things are usually pretty predictable you know they'll say something like well of course it's equally true that he had it before he descended from heaven and he had it before the creation of the world but that's not the point. The point is it's kind of strange for Jesus to be going past his birth going past the crossing of the Red Sea, going past Abraham past Noah past, Adam and Eve past the creation of the world when God said there be light too before the creation of the world. He's referring in a trinitarian interpretation to the glory he had before the creation of the world which he didn't give up in trinitarian thought until he descended from heaven into the womb of Mary. It's rather strange for Jesus to be talking this way from a trinitarian perspective. He should be saying the glory I had with you before I came down from heaven but he doesn't.
That should signal to you that there might be a problem here. Another problem is Jesus is asking to be glorified with his own glory in scripture. Jesus was glorified as a result of his obedience to God the Father and we read about that because of his humble obedience. He was highly exalted because Jesus overcame he sat down on his Father's throne there's a cause and effect here. How then does it make sense to say his glorification was simply retrieving his own garments of glory. Trinitarians also tend to regard the contextual facts in the same prayer Jesus says the glory which you have given to me that's in a perfect tense, He's praying this and he isn't glorified yet the glory which you have given to me I have given to them, that's to you and me before we even existed. Jesus gave it to us the same is true of Jesus the glory which you have given to me I have given to them that they may see my glory which you gave me for you love me before the foundation of the world. Loved who a pre-existent divine person it doesn't say that and at 1 Peter 1:19-20
We see that God had for known the Lamb, a man before the foundation of the world. There's a little problem here too because the way trinitarians interpret John 17:5 essentially ignores the other statements Jesus is making about this matter in this very same prayer of his. Finally we'll get to the subject at hand. The translation I think there's also a problem here and what you see here is the verse, in essentially an interlinear form the Greek on top and the corresponding English words just below it. The problem I see with this verse isn't in the first half in the first line you see on top it's in the second part.
John 17:5 a typical translation of this verse it go something like this, Now, Father glorify me together with yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was. Trinitarians typically take this verse to mean that before creation Jesus was in eternity with the Father in his glorified state, and he had this glory before the creation of the world with the Father. This verse is usually used by trinitarians to try to prove that Jesus pre-existed before the creation of the world. In this video (see below) I want to talk about the translation of this verse. I don't buy it and I'm going to show you why I don't buy it. I think there's a pretty serious problem with the way trinitarians typically translate this verse and it results in Jesus saying something quite different than what he really did say. I just want to show you show you that here in this video (see below) Let's just take a look again at a typical translation of this verse. Now, Father, glorify me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was.
I think that's the new American Standard translation and so trinitarians essentially take this verse to mean Jesus relinquished his glory when he became a man, keep that in mind, now he is asking to get his glory back and that's pretty much how they take this verse. Because they think that's what it says to them that proves that Jesus was a self-conscious person pre-existing before the creation of the world. Here's a couple of problems, there's a lot of problems with this interpretation; Number one would be why does God the Son need to ask for his own glory back? why would God the Son need to ask for something which he freely set aside, is he unable to retrieve his glory himself. And if you think about it where is it? what does it mean that he relinquished his glory? In fact trinitarians claim that Jesus did take it for himself in there interpretation of John 2:19. Well if he took it back for himself when he raised himself into glory as trinitarians interpret John 2:19. Why is he asking for it now why is he asking for something that is rightfully his and that he freely set aside. You see what I mean he should just be able to simply retrieve it for himself instead of ask for it.
Second problem: shouldn't he be saying the glory I had with you before I came down from heaven. in trinitarian doctrine Jesus still had his glory long after the world was created and he didn't give up his glory until he descended from heaven into the womb of Mary. Trinitarian responses to these kinds of things are usually pretty predictable you know they'll say something like well of course it's equally true that he had it before he descended from heaven and he had it before the creation of the world but that's not the point. The point is it's kind of strange for Jesus to be going past his birth going past the crossing of the Red Sea, going past Abraham past Noah past, Adam and Eve past the creation of the world when God said there be light too before the creation of the world. He's referring in a trinitarian interpretation to the glory he had before the creation of the world which he didn't give up in trinitarian thought until he descended from heaven into the womb of Mary. It's rather strange for Jesus to be talking this way from a trinitarian perspective. He should be saying the glory I had with you before I came down from heaven but he doesn't.
That should signal to you that there might be a problem here. Another problem is Jesus is asking to be glorified with his own glory in scripture. Jesus was glorified as a result of his obedience to God the Father and we read about that because of his humble obedience. He was highly exalted because Jesus overcame he sat down on his Father's throne there's a cause and effect here. How then does it make sense to say his glorification was simply retrieving his own garments of glory. Trinitarians also tend to regard the contextual facts in the same prayer Jesus says the glory which you have given to me that's in a perfect tense, He's praying this and he isn't glorified yet the glory which you have given to me I have given to them, that's to you and me before we even existed. Jesus gave it to us the same is true of Jesus the glory which you have given to me I have given to them that they may see my glory which you gave me for you love me before the foundation of the world. Loved who a pre-existent divine person it doesn't say that and at 1 Peter 1:19-20
We see that God had for known the Lamb, a man before the foundation of the world. There's a little problem here too because the way trinitarians interpret John 17:5 essentially ignores the other statements Jesus is making about this matter in this very same prayer of his. Finally we'll get to the subject at hand. The translation I think there's also a problem here and what you see here is the verse, in essentially an interlinear form the Greek on top and the corresponding English words just below it. The problem I see with this verse isn't in the first half in the first line you see on top it's in the second part.
So we're just going to look at that part of it and that looks like this.
Here again we see a typical trinitarian translation with “the glory which I had with you before the world was” Okay so let's get into a few more details here I think probably the best way to explain this is.
That this mistranslation centers around this Greek verb “eîna” a present infinitive which trinitarians translate as the word “was” The English word “was” now there's a little more to the problem than this.
It's how they they block off their words here and we'll see that in a minute but that's the first problem how they translate the word itself. Another important feature of this verse is you'll see that there's a double article there and to an English speaker it looks like someone in Greek said “the the” twice in a row. We'll talk about that, and another thing that we'll be looking at are these two words at the end of the sentence that Jesus spoken in Greek at John 17:5
It's how they they block off their words here and we'll see that in a minute but that's the first problem how they translate the word itself. Another important feature of this verse is you'll see that there's a double article there and to an English speaker it looks like someone in Greek said “the the” twice in a row. We'll talk about that, and another thing that we'll be looking at are these two words at the end of the sentence that Jesus spoken in Greek at John 17:5
And they mean 'with you” “beside you” “alongside you” in your presence all those are of okay translations of these two words.
This sort of represents what trinitarians do with the verse they take that verb “eîna” translated as “was” and then they construe Jesus as saying “before the world was” then they sever the two words at the end of the sentence from the Greek verb “eîna” and they plug them in with the words “I had.
” So you end up with “I had with you” as you see in the blue there in English translations so they take those two words at the end of the sentence and they stick them with “I had” and now you end up with with “I had with you” And in the red they kind of block those three words off like that “the world was.” Okay and they're thinking of the verb “eîna” translated as “was” here as a verb that belongs to the subject the world.
This just represents how they take the words “with you” and they move them over in the sentence here Now sometimes that's quite appropriate, there's nothing wrong with you know moving words around as long as you're not changing the meaning of the sentence.
We do that in English too you know we can say a sentence one way and we can say it with the words arranged another way and it'll mean the same thing, but that's the thing if you're changing the meaning of the sentence then you can't do this. And I think that's what's happening, so the word “eîna” if you check it simply means “to be” You know in the Bible you'll see expressions like “they knew him to be the Christ” okay and that's all what's kind of literally said in Greek. They knew him to be the Christ, we might translate that in English as “we knew or they knew he was the Christ” but when we're doing that we aren't or at least we shouldn't be suggesting that the word was in our English translation is what the Greek word means. When we do something like that what we're doing is finding an English way to say the same thing and in English we could say “they knew Jesus to be the Christ” we could also say “they knew Jesus was the Christ” “they knew Jesus is the Christ” we can say it in different ways in English. But that doesn't mean the word “was” the word “is” or the words “to be” all mean the same thing.
You have to be careful about that and I think that's sort of the trinitarian excuse for translating this as “the word was” “eîna” simply means “to be” all the time always. Okay whether it makes for good English or not is not the important point, the important point is what it means in Greek. This sort of encapsulates what I think that trinitarian error is notice the words in red.
You have to be careful about that and I think that's sort of the trinitarian excuse for translating this as “the word was” “eîna” simply means “to be” all the time always. Okay whether it makes for good English or not is not the important point, the important point is what it means in Greek. This sort of encapsulates what I think that trinitarian error is notice the words in red.
They have “the world was” okay and our interlinear lines there. I think that's incorrect, I think what Jesus actually said was “to be with you” as you see in above image and we'll look at that a little more here. Notice how they block the words off to translate them, they think these words “the world was” kind of go together.
Okay I'm saying that's wrong, the words “to be with you” or “to be alongside you” those should be blocked off, those go together.
Now this other feature, this double article here is pretty confusing for an English speaker because we don't really do this in English at least it would be rare.
Now this other feature, this double article here is pretty confusing for an English speaker because we don't really do this in English at least it would be rare.
Now each of these articles has a different purpose and each of them essentially anticipates a “different something that it's modifying.” When we use the English word “the” for example we use it to say “the something” and each one of these words anticipates that. But they do different in Greek that we don't do in English. The two things that are being marked by these articles are shown here and the first one you see there is “the world.” and that's the second article which goes with the Greek word “cosmos” in here and it just means “the world”. The first article marks everything that follows it and grammarians like to call it an articular infinitive, that can be a little bit misleading because these articular infinitives as they like to call them are really expressions with an infinitive verb in them. That's what we have here and so the expression that goes with the first article is “the world to be alongside you” how does that make sense well we'll see in a second here, here's another example Philippians 2:6 and this is kind of an interlinear thing here I have again.
What is literally said in Greek is something like this “not a plunder he regarded the to be equal to God” okay now that would make really poor English if we said something like that in English, but it doesn't make for poor Greek.
Okay that's what it was actually said and the word “the” here if we can put it this way it marks everything that follows it “to be equal to God.” What we do in English we just really don't use this article we would say something more like this “not a plunder he regarded” that is comma “to be equal to God.” You see what I mean or “which is to be equal to God” we might use. We wouldn't quite say it like this but in Greek they did and so what the word “the” here or the Greek article is it's saying that everything that follows it is a something just like if I say “the world” you know “the word world” is something. So the something here is an entire expression “to be equal to God.” okay. What you have is a verbal expression being treated like a noun of something and so here's the translation of what I think Jesus actually said.
And now you Father glorify me” in the previous verse Jesus had just said that he had glorified the Father and all the works that he had done. and that's why it kind of comes out this way, And now, You, Father glorify me alongside yourself, to the glory which I had or was having more correctly before the world, to be alongside you. Okay now at first that might seem a little bit strange but we're not interested in how we would like to say things in English, what we're interested in is what Jesus actually said and what it would mean in Greek. Now notice here, “And now, You, Father glorify me alongside yourself” okay that's what he says, so divided the sentence into two, now look what he continues to say “to the glory which I had before the world to be alongside you” You see how he's really just clarifying what he said in the first half, “glorify me alongside yourself” to the glory or to that glory to be alongside you. It's all referring to the same glorification. Look at it this way just for a moment just take out those words in the middle “glorify me alongside yourself to the glory to be alongside you” what glory? that glory to be alongside You. Jesus is referring to the fact that his coming resurrection the glory alongside the Father was something he had or was having before the world. Because that is when God granted his resurrection glory to him and that's what John 17:22-24 is about.
God gets things done by his word he speaks and he has finished his work, He sets the times and seasons those things will occur by His own authority, that's why John could say that Jesus was the Lamb who had been slain “past-tense” from the foundation of the world. Okay and there are several verses in scripture like that. God speaks and He is done and this is what Jesus is referring to here, just as he is the Lamb who had been slain from the foundation of the world. He's a man who had been glorified from the foundation of the world and the way he's putting it here is “the glory which I had before the world to be alongside You” He could have said something like this “to the suffering which I had before the world to be nailed on a cross” in the same way you see what I'm saying. And now, You, Father glorify me alongside yourself to that glory which I was having “that's what the verb more correctly means” before the world to be alongside You. In other words before the world Jesus was having something and what was it? to be alongside the Father in the future. It was his it was like he was an heir who already had the promise of his inheritance granted to him.
He just didn't have his inheritance yet he hadn't inherited this yet but it was promised to him before the foundation of the world and why wouldn't it be, he's God's son, so just like if you're an heir and a will, you could say you were having before that person's death to inherit to have that inheritance when that person died. What Jesus is saying here is the same kind of idea and here's a way maybe you could express it “And now, You, Father glorify me alongside yourself to that resurrection glory which I was having before the world, to be alongside you. I encourage you to look at these things very carefully just don't naively assume that because some scholars with some credentials behind their name approved by other men, by the way not by God necessarily, their credentials are you know paper credentials don't just gullibly assume that what they tell you is going to be correct.
You have to realize they're all arguing with each other about things, the Baptist scholars are arguing with the Catholic scholars for example somebody's wrong and scholars can be wrong translators,
can be wrong theologians, can be wrong apologists and commentators etc etc. You have to be kind of careful you know and Peter warned us he said they will make merchandise out of you with well turned words. Heed the warning. I'm pretty well convinced this verse is mistranslated Jesus didn't say “ before the world was” you know and it's wrong to sever those two words “alongside you” or with you” from the verb. I know it means to be alongside you that's what Jesus is praying for “to be alongside the Father” he says so in the same verse in the first half of the verse. When you kind of consider all the facts like that it should be pretty obvious I hope that helps some of you. God bless you. Please watch the video below.
God gets things done by his word he speaks and he has finished his work, He sets the times and seasons those things will occur by His own authority, that's why John could say that Jesus was the Lamb who had been slain “past-tense” from the foundation of the world. Okay and there are several verses in scripture like that. God speaks and He is done and this is what Jesus is referring to here, just as he is the Lamb who had been slain from the foundation of the world. He's a man who had been glorified from the foundation of the world and the way he's putting it here is “the glory which I had before the world to be alongside You” He could have said something like this “to the suffering which I had before the world to be nailed on a cross” in the same way you see what I'm saying. And now, You, Father glorify me alongside yourself to that glory which I was having “that's what the verb more correctly means” before the world to be alongside You. In other words before the world Jesus was having something and what was it? to be alongside the Father in the future. It was his it was like he was an heir who already had the promise of his inheritance granted to him.
He just didn't have his inheritance yet he hadn't inherited this yet but it was promised to him before the foundation of the world and why wouldn't it be, he's God's son, so just like if you're an heir and a will, you could say you were having before that person's death to inherit to have that inheritance when that person died. What Jesus is saying here is the same kind of idea and here's a way maybe you could express it “And now, You, Father glorify me alongside yourself to that resurrection glory which I was having before the world, to be alongside you. I encourage you to look at these things very carefully just don't naively assume that because some scholars with some credentials behind their name approved by other men, by the way not by God necessarily, their credentials are you know paper credentials don't just gullibly assume that what they tell you is going to be correct.
You have to realize they're all arguing with each other about things, the Baptist scholars are arguing with the Catholic scholars for example somebody's wrong and scholars can be wrong translators,
can be wrong theologians, can be wrong apologists and commentators etc etc. You have to be kind of careful you know and Peter warned us he said they will make merchandise out of you with well turned words. Heed the warning. I'm pretty well convinced this verse is mistranslated Jesus didn't say “ before the world was” you know and it's wrong to sever those two words “alongside you” or with you” from the verb. I know it means to be alongside you that's what Jesus is praying for “to be alongside the Father” he says so in the same verse in the first half of the verse. When you kind of consider all the facts like that it should be pretty obvious I hope that helps some of you. God bless you. Please watch the video below.
Video by Brother Kel - http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity.html
This article above was written from a transcript of the video above.
This article above was written from a transcript of the video above.
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